Interim CMOs can play an important function for a business, but they aren't miracle workers. To get the most from their time, an interim CMO needs to make sure they're prepared, while the companies hiring them need to provide them with the right tools. That's why Kaila Yates, experienced interim CMO joined us on CMO Convo to share her extensive experience so you can hit the ground running.

Originally an episode of the CMO Convo podcast, you can now read a full write-up of what we discussed below.

CMO Convo | Hitting the ground running as an interim CMO
Kaila Yates is here to share everything interim CMOs need to succeed, both in terms of their own preparation, and what the organizations hiring them need to provide.

Kaila's background and approach to the interim CMO role

Hi Kaila, could you introduce yourself to our audience, tell us a bit about your professional background and your approach to the CMO role?

Yeah, of course, thank you for having me by the way. I have been a marketer for well over 30 years. I cut my teeth at IBM and moved on from there. Always within the tech space. Most of my career has been living overseas so I really believe that if you're going to be looking after international markets, you need to understand the context within which that message is landing, the creative is landing,  the color, the number, whatever it is that you really understand the context that your clients are receiving information.

Plus, I am just a character that just is always curious and always interested in learning new things, and goodness, who doesn't love travel? So spent a lot of my career living overseas and honing my craft. But I became an interim CMO just over eight years ago. I'd finished a role and I was not really sure where I wanted to go.

I really was looking for somewhere where I could have an immediate impact,  that was really important to me, and hence moving into interim roles because you can have an incredible impact really quickly. And that impact can be in so many different ways.

It must be a good role for a curious person to be an interim CMO. You're always in a new situation, a new company to discover, even new industries to discover.

Exactly, I love learning. And what I found in this interim business is that actually while a lot of the problems that companies might feel that they're facing are unique to them, they're not. The comfort is in knowing that you're not alone. There are lots of other people facing the same sorts of challenges. But I can bring a different perspective.

Technology and tech marketing go through constant innovation and that's one of the reasons why I love working in tech marketing: this constant innovation and the impact that innovation has on society, on businesses, business models, and how organizations grow fascinates me.

But it also can be quite a challenge for companies to understand how to leverage that technology. How to move if you've started on a path, you've had a vision, and you've grown your organization and you're all heading towards a direction but you can see that that direction maybe isn't where you want to be.

There's new innovation, new opportunities, how do you move? Sometimes it's like moving the Titanic, how do you move an organization in a new direction? Are all these things that I've faced in the last year with clients?

Perhaps maybe talk a little bit about that, why an interim? And why would an interim be a good solution for some of the scenarios I just talked about?

The usual function of interim CMOs

Let's dive into that, what kind of function do you usually perform as an interim CMO?

Yes, let's talk about me for a minute. Because I understand that there will be interim CMOs who bring a different set of skills. A lot of the companies and the organizations that I've worked with have been looking for team transformation, the marketing organization transformation.

So organizational design, structure, process, some of those uglier bits. But it's really is the marketing team, and it's a horrible phrase to use,  it's certainly not something that CEOs have used with me but it's a good way for me to describe it, is the marketing team fit for purpose?

Here's where we want to be and we have a marketing organization that's doing great work but maybe they're not leveraging technology in a way that would give them greater efficiency or more impact on pipeline management. And then certainly, within some of the startups and scale-ups, it's we've never had a CMO before and now we realize that actually, we need to have somebody who's part of our executive team.

Previously, marketing might have reported into a head of function so operations and as part of that, bringing someone into the exec team is, we don't understand marketing and we want somebody that can help us understand what we should be looking for in terms of a new head of marketing and new CMO.

But also what's the infrastructure we need to prepare and plan for and adopt in order to make that new person successful? Those are really quite different types of CMO functions, or interim roles but equally fascinating.

So I always find that if you've not had a CMO as part of the exec team that worries me because that suggests that someone has been looking after the brand, someone's been looking after the go-to-market, either at the side of their desk, or it's been juniorized, that role hasn't been given a strategic voice. And to come in as the interim CMO, you need to feel like you can have that voice, you need to have the authority and the credibility.  

So sometimes what you're having to do, when you first come in, is create that credibility, create that immediate impact the people will see that the role of marketing is new, has changed and that there's a different outcome that they could expect from their marketing function. That's quite a big ask for one person for six months. And that immediate impact, you've got to be able to do within your first 100 days.

So I love them, they're a challenge but they come with an immense amount of stress because you really do have the responsibility of how is marketing going to be perceived? And how is the team that I'm going to create going to be able to respond to that challenge? Remember, many of them might have reported to an operations head or into product or the CPO. You're now taking them out, and you're putting the lens on this marketing organization.

You're putting a lens on the individuals. And that comes with an immense amount of pressure. And so there are some things that I do and I'll talk about some of the tactics a little bit later, but that's the sort of function.

The role that you're playing within these companies changes, some organizations are really saying, "We know we have an issue with not understanding the customer journey. Our products aren't really built around that customer experience and we're losing business, we're losing churn for our app. How do we fix that? We know that there's a refinement to our product, how do we go about data gathering?"

Now of course, in most products you should be able to do that, but who's doing insight gathering? And then who's creating the actionable plan from that insight gathering?

The majority of the work I do is in pipeline development, demand generation, the acquisition of new business, and in really creating a strong, data-driven, insights-driven marketing team that uses the right technology at the right time. And that comes with its own challenges because data and insights are something that you need to gather over time.

I'm absolutely hugely targeted, KPIs driven, but you need to set those KPIs in a way that is achievable to start with, but also so that you can say, I'm going to gather all of the SEO, we'll rewrite content from an SEO perspective, and then we'll gather the data and we'll be able to give you a view immediately of the impact of that work. But don't make too many assumptions.

Let's not make too many hasty decisions about the type of marketing we do until we've had a bit more time to really investigate - was it a piece of content? Was it the timing of that content? Was it the channel that content was delivered on? Was it an h1 or an h2 that made a difference? What was it that created that reaction?

That's the bit where some of the C-suite can get a little frustrated, it's like, why don't you know? So it's really about being able to be productive very quickly and setting expectations. All I seem to do is reset and set expectations. And then finally, one of the other key aspects of all of this is also brand reputation. Growth is absolutely what every company wants to do.

But you want to do it in a way that is enhancing and building that brand and reputation. So much of that is also orchestrating messaging, segmentation, brand surveys, and perception, all the way through to creative look and feel. So quite a broad breadth of the type of marketing work that we do. But that's also one of the joys of being an interim.

Is it individual projects that you're brought in to work on? Or are you brought in to be a CMO for six months?

Yeah, normally it's "be a CMO for six months, here's the problem that we have" and normally, it's "our head of marketing didn't work out", "we've lost our head of marketing". "They've moved to a competitor", or "actually what we realize is the role was a head of marketing, director level role and we want to upgrade the position and, with that, upgrade marketing, so we're about to invest heavily in marketing and as part of that investment process, we will bring in an interim but we want you to help us hire the new CMO and make them successful".

I prefer to come in and be an interim. I have worked on projects, I've worked on specific CMO projects.

One of the CMO interim roles I did was to hold the fort for someone who was about to join.

They had a four-month gardening leave break and so I was holding the fort during that period but part of the KPIs that we set for that interim period for me, is I'd look up the organizational structure that I would have for them, how we go about funding that new organization. This person was coming into really only three marketers globally and I've built a business case for 25.

Not immediately, but certainly being able to show that phased approach of where their priority is, and where do we move to within a window of two years. And then within that project, it was really, "we've got a really big product, it's huge, it will change the way that we're perceived, and hence moving to the CMO position".

And really help us with that knowledge and positioning, and getting all the right resources to help us deliver. So it's usually "we need an interim" but there can be some really big projects.

Preparing for the first day as an interim CMO

When it comes to being an interim, what preparation do you do before you start work? Before you get into the office or if it's remote work, what do you have in your head on day one? What information do you need?

What good marketers do is take a brief. It's the conversations that you're having with the execs you are speaking to, that you're introduced to. More often than not there will be somebody from HR and the CEO.

But I always ask to speak to the head of sales, head of product, they're usually my go tos because they give me a sense of "are these people I could work with?" "Is the cultural fit right?" But also, really understanding priorities. What the CEO might tell you may not be played out in your colleagues so it's really being able to see: is everyone on the same page?

Are we all focused on the same outcomes and objectives for this placement? And then it's really taking root so what specifically are the outcomes you're expecting? How do we measure that? How do we track that? Who's looking at that performance? And how do I make sure that's something I feel I could deliver in the period of time of the placement?

Some things are achievable, some aren't, or what I can say is that looks to me to be a six-month window of outcomes. I know, within the four-month placements, that these are the steps we'll take to achieve that.

And we'll have a roadmap or that six months, we'll have a roadmap for eight months. A lot of it is taking the brief and then it's being able to define, I usually like to define my 30/60 day plan. And some of the metrics and the objectives that are set around that and get that agreed upfront.

Really, from there, it is just being able to go back to those and revisit within the first 30 days and say, "Hey, now that I've been here for 30 days, here are some of the challenges in order to be able to meet these and this is why" so it's really often resetting those objectives. Sometimes it's completely redefining them.

But take the brief, really be sure that the cultural fit is going to be right. Because I have done that, I've gone into an organization where I have known almost immediately that this was not going to be the right place for me.

And in at least one instance they hadn't cleared the path, part of it is also clearing the path. Letting the marketing organization know, letting the entire organization know that we're hiring an interim and that interim is going to be focusing purely on these four things.

Everything else is noise. But these four things need to be fixed in order for us to achieve these objectives. So it's really also being able to advise the new client/new company of how to prepare the ground for the new interim CMO.

It sounds interesting what you're talking about setting the KPIs - who sets these KPIs, who sets these metrics? Is it just you internally or do you talk to the CEO, do you talk to other heads of department to set them?

I'm setting those objectives with the CEO. For instance, if it's a product launch, one of the things you need to achieve while you're here in the six months is we have a huge product that we need to launch and these are some of the... so what I'll do there is go work with that CPO or the head of that particular team and understand what is achievable.

It might sound like I'm going to set objectives I can meet, well, not many companies allow you to do that. It is then a conversation and a dynamic that you have with the finance team, Chief Commercial Officer, it's all part and parcel of the dynamic of being part of a management team is, what objectives have we set? Where's the strategy? How is this new product going to meet your business strategy? And what metrics did you set around it?

More often than not, I have metrics set for me that I can't change because they're so bedded into the roadmap of the organization. My role then becomes how do we achieve those without killing people in the process?

But also, do we really need to go back and revisit some of those market expectations? Like anything, it's a negotiation. I've set KPIs sometimes that I've regretted because they've been almost impossible.

Haven't we all at some point?

Yeah but that's the fun of it all, what can we do? And how do we go clearing the path to get it done?

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Working with other departments as an interim CMO

Let's talk about clearing the path. One of the big issues that have come up a lot in these conversations with CMOS, particularly the residential/in-house CMOs, is building those relationships with other heads of department.

They've got the advantage of time to build personal relationships with those heads of department. How do you do that as an interim CMO who could be just in there for three or four months? How do you build that solid relationship with, say, the Head of Sales or the Head of Finance?

What a great question, it's something I wonder around myself. It really comes down to very honest conversations, really honest conversations. In the first week, I'm meeting many of those heads and part of the conversations usually is what's worked and what hasn't worked? And here's the KPI I've set for myself, or this is the KPI we agree, within that context, what's achievable? With who? Which team? How do we create?

I think certainly when you're joining a management team, they are all wedded to this outcome. So you tend to get people saying, "You know what, I know we need to move our sales operations team to in order to make you successful, make the project successful".

So I think part of it is a management team that completely is behind the outcomes that the CMO has signed up for so everyone's signed up for them. I really have felt that there is a shared goal and then it's just really honest, almost brutal conversations.

Finance, you've promised me that we'll get the funding for this but every time I go and hit the CFO, the Head of Finance, I get shown the same spreadsheet. "Have you ring-fenced funds?" "How do I tap into that fund?" Those are really sometimes difficult conversations.

But I honestly haven't met anyone in a company that hasn't been open to getting some feedback on their function and the way that their team is interacting with marketing, where we could get greater efficiencies, where there might be more opportunity to work closely.

So it's how do we build the processes to take some of the angst and the infuriating conversations out? How do we work better together? So that's processes, personalities, conversations.

I think I'm also one of these people... I just believe we're all in this for the same reason, we want this company to be successful so why wouldn't we find a way to get around our own functional barriers? There's always a way to work together a bit more closely, a bit better, we find those.

Building bonds and having the right tools

Is there a step-by-step process you have for building bonds, or do you just work it out on the job kind of thing?

I think that the first month is the most important, I put a lot of energy into the first month, including before I join. So here are the things that you companies should do in preparation for me to come on board. And that sometimes could be just a week to clear the runway for me to come.

Obviously, the technology and making sure that I can be productive straight away. There are some really simple things. I've found having admin support immediately is a game-changer because they're getting the calls set up fully before I've even joined. But they also know how to navigate the invoicing process, if something doesn't work for my IT office access, all of that is cleared.

But there are also things like induction. So understanding who's who in the company? How does the company operate? The things that you would do for anyone that's joining fresh. Where's your intranet? Getting all of that done within the first few days and having admin support, it's just paved the way for me to be successful.

Getting a lot of those calls set up and you know very quickly who is maybe not on the same page as you. And I just know I need to spend more time with them or I need to go and investigate why. What I found really good is, in the first two weeks, I have a quick catch-up, literally 15 minutes, with the CEO every other day.

And that's just to say, "Hey, here are some assumptions I'm starting to build. These are my initial theories, my hypothesis for this is... Do you agree or disagree? Have I misunderstood? Am I not capturing the right feedback? Who else do I need to go and talk to, in order to step away from this hypothesis?" And look, is the CEO always the right person to ask? Not always.

Sometimes it is just connecting with the board members too, to understand where they are. And particularly in companies, not just listed companies, but also scale-ups it's that first month where you made the most of how quickly you can absorb information.

Back to that first couple of weeks is also where's your strategy doc? Where are we with having achieved those strategic goals? Where are our revenue targets? And also where are we on meeting the revenue targets? Where can I get a win-loss report? Is there a customer focus group? How quickly can I meet them?

And where I can I really like to get out and talk to buyers. So with a couple of the commercial team, sales team just so I can go and listen to the way they pitch the organization, the way that the specific product or service might be talked about. Gosh, all the way down to who owns the website? Let me go and see what the data looks like. So it really is just that first month of the foundation setting.

One of the other things is if we have a PR agency, what's our crisis plan, so God forbid, anything should happen I know how to respond. I have had an interim assignment, it was my first week, Friday afternoon, I'm working from home reading all of these documents and something of a crisis happened.

In the first week?

My first week, it was a Friday. CEO is on holiday, CFO who was standing in for the CEO is just out of pocket, driving.

The perfect storm.

But it was also the perfect example of where an interim CMO who has a bunch of experience can just say... and I've got other exec members calling me going, "Oh, my God, have you seen this?" Yep. Could you all just get away from my phone? Right now, I don't want to speak to you, I want to speak to my PR agency. And I'd already met them.

So it's actually understanding all of the crises, if the website goes down, who fixes it? Having that knowledge actually gives you greater confidence to just go about your day. I am a bit of a disaster theorist, I always look at what's the worst thing that can happen? But it helps, it makes me feel more comfortable knowing that I know what to do should there be a problem.

It's just like knowing where your fire exits are and stuff.


Day one, know where the fire exits are, know what to do in a marketing crisis as well.

Exactly. And luckily, I managed to close that one down very quickly. It was a Friday afternoon, too. So not the best journalists in the world. But it's those things, I think another reason why a seasoned CMO is what you're hiring, that's what you're paying for.

And if it is a short interim, you need a seasoned CMO, someone who can hit the ground running straight away.

Yeah, and often, so many of the execs that I work with will say, "I don't understand that. I kind of know what I like about marketing does something, but I don't actually know how marketing works". I think certainly the more digital marketing, and a lot of the martech executives really don't understand.

And so what they're looking to you to do is to help them navigate that. And so, therefore, they'll kind of go, "I know enough to be dangerous, but actually don't know enough. So I do want someone that can come in and say you told me that your problem was demand generation, or the quality of the leads that we're getting is poor".

But actually, your issue isn't the quality of the leads, it's your products, or it could be your customer care, after someone's acquired a product, they're low value, so they don't really care about coming out of it.

A seasoned CMO will be able to tell you where that problem really comes from and can also say, "You hired me to come and look at your brand, your reputation, but actually, I think you have a bigger problem over here in your marketing or in your sales organization. So let me go and see is it a sales enablement issue? Is it a sales training issue?"

It's the CMO who is an expert in what they do, but also an expert in how marketing fits into the bigger organization.

Do you think as an interim CMO that you have a better appreciation for the broader responsibility of marketing within an organization? You have to be able to get in there straight away and look at all the big picture that's related to marketing. If you're time there is "I'm just in charge of the brand", you have to know straight away: "how does this brand fit into the different functions of the business?"

Exactly. Marketing CMOs should be generalists, we should then be able to go... I mean, where I am at the moment, we know we've got something that's not working in marketing operations, there's something with our tech stack that's not there. So rather than completely change all the processes and change everything, hire an expert who will come and tell us what's broken in the stack.

Before it was just the quality of leads, or the process within which the lead is being managed and how it ends up in the sales funnel is just a mess. So as a generalist, I think I know where the problem is so I've hired somebody to come and look at that problem.

But it's a specialist. And as a generalist, I can then identify where we need to rectify, remedy, and how, bring in short-term care, and then move on to the next issue. And they're all connected, it's all super connected. So a CMO should be a generalist.

Definitely. You have to cover so much as a CMO, and particularly as an interim CMO.

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Leadership as an interim CMO

What about within the marketing department? Do you go in on day one and do a big inspiring speech to the team and lay out your strategy? How do you work with marketing teams?

Every marketing team that I work have worked with will tell you that I don't do the inspiring speech. I'm a real pragmatist. Most of the marketing teams that I've worked with have either just lost the head of marketing, and are a little bit shell-shocked.

Or have known for a while that things weren't working, so they're kind of ready and receptive but worried and really concerned about the impact that's going to have on them as a team and as individuals. So my approach is always with compassion because I would feel all of those things if it was me.

And at that point, I don't want an inspiring speech, I want to feel that the person that's going to come in is going to listen to me, that I still have a valid voice in the work that this person is going to do with me. And that they are going to be the voice of marketing into the exec.

Finally, that I feel like they could inspire more creative, more metrics-driven work. So I tend to talk about my experience, the types of companies I've worked for, the types of work I've done. And certainly, the last few interim assignments just to get them a sense of the work that we'll be doing together.

But I'm also really honest that the interim role is about transforming marketing, we collectively have this amazing opportunity to go recraft a team and organization in the vision that we'd want. How often have we, as employees, sat in a group and kind of gone "I wish we could do more of this. I don't understand why my boss won't allow us to do this".

I think for a marketing team, an interim CMO is this amazing opportunity to be able to say "I've got four ideas that I'd love to share with you. I really think we could work more closely with sales if we did more of this. Or we have a real problem with our product teams because they're not sharing enough with us. So that's the problem I want you to solve for me".

Those are the things I look for from my team, as I go in to look after them and be their caretaker manager for a while. It's, you've been here longer than I have so you're more aware of where the roadblocks will be, where the road bumps might come, you will have had ideas that maybe you weren't able to realize before.

And that's not because the previous head of marketing didn't allow it to happen. Sometimes it's your organization’s structure that didn't allow it to happen, or the organization's ambitions have changed and so marketing should be able to step up to those ambitions. And so that, to me, is the opportunity to go and do some great work.

And I think as part of the interim management is also the opportunity to say no, I say this to every single team I go to work with, is you have a chance to say no, there are some things that are just noise that we do because we've always done them, what would we stop doing?

Some of them won't stop, some I can't stop, some of the things are just functions of our role that we might not like doing but we can find other efficiencies. But really, it's also being able to say, we waste our time... a great example is a lot of marketing teams have internal newsletters that inform their sales colleagues of what's coming. Do we really need a newsletter?

Do we need to be spending half a day writing newsletters when there are some great tools like Slack and Confluence and things where you can put all the information out there and just say, "Hey, sales, go over to that Confluence page, I've got everything in there, my initial thoughts on where I'm going with this new initiative, the data we're gathering, the insights we've been able to capture.

I've got some slides over there that you can read through, and I've done a short video commentary so I don't even have to waste your time, it's on-demand. So go check it out, I'd love to see how that message lands with a customer".

That just means that the marketing team's more efficient and that we can be more iterative with the work that we do which means that our work improves with every interaction it has with a colleague. So it's all about really what's holding you back? And then let's try and figure out how we solve that.

It's interesting because you wouldn't think that an interim CMO would be in a position to really take ownership of the learning and development of the marketing team. But it sounds like it's something that you do as part of your role.

Yeah, I really believe that. It's one of the things I love doing anyway. I have quite open conversations with each of the team members, where do you want to be from a career perspective? Why are you here? What's keeping you here? What motivates you? What work have you really enjoyed doing? Why? And what do you wish we could do more of?

That gives me a sense of who they are and I'm really proud of the fact that certainly from most of the companies I've worked the team that's stayed, that stuck together, we evolved, I still talk to, coach, mentor, answer questions. In one group that I have all our conversations are GIFs.

It really is about getting to know the individuals, how those individuals fit within the plan, and the transformation that you need to make happen and having brutal conversation, really brutal. In a lot of these transformations, you're letting people go.

And those really open honest conversations I really should thank everyone that's participated in them and has responded so well is just to be able to say, here's where the team needs to be snd I think that you're in the wrong space. What can we do to help you?

And sometimes it is training, sometimes it is a simple thing as I think if you spend the next six months learning this tool, if you go and sign up and with the CIM or spend time working in a project management role, work in a product management role for a short while, so you understand the impact.

Some of those are very easy internal processes and programs. Some of them are courses in education. And then often it is just how can I personally help you find another role? Because I don't think you're going to enjoy this, I don't think your skills are quite right.

Those conversations I don't have immediately they're are over time, it's through testing, coaching, watching, and tasking, that's where I get very hands-on, it gets into the weeds sometimes.

So it's about your personal experience of the team, rather than necessarily previous performance stats, or previous assessments?

Both, I'm looking at previous assessments, I'm talking to people inside the organization that they're interacting with. I'm always looking at what is the business outcome that we need to drive? And is this person going to be able to change the PR function? I know I'm not getting value out of my PR agency, they're too passive, they're waiting, if I get on a call, then they respond to things. Why is that?

Is it because that person, the head of PR, doesn’t have the voice, doesn't have the training, doesn't have the experience? Or they may not even have metrics, let's set the metrics snd let's see how that person is able to respond to that challenge.

If they're not able to respond to that challenge, I give them another challenge. If you're going to let somebody go, you need to tell them why. And I don't have the luxury of six months with them. But I can give them internal feedback and I can give them the feedback from my own observations of their ability to step up.

And more often than not, it is just me demanding more but within the scope of their function and their experience and authority within a company. So I just talked about a head of PR, if they're not able to manage a PR agency, we have a problem. And that's an easy problem to define to an individual and give them an opportunity and give them some of the tools in order to step up.

But if they're not able to step up, it's a very open conversation because I've already given you the needs, and you haven't been able to, for whatever reasons, there's always something. If you're not able to step up, then my conversation is, I don't think this is the right place for you.

But it could be that I hire someone to be the head of PR, in which case, I need to change job titles. A couple of people are okay with that, some of them sort of say, actually, that's all I've ever wanted is to have someone to learn from, to learn my craft from. That's fine.

So again, it's back to being a compassionate leader, understanding the impact of your words, the impact of the advice, and the guidance you're going to give someone. And doing it in a way that is human, clear, and with data points to help somebody understand why. It's always the why.

The golden rule of being an interim CMO

That covers our next question: what is the ultimate golden rule of being an interim CMO? But you seem to have summed it up pretty perfectly, being a compassionate leader but also having the data-driven points to support what you need to do.

Yeah, and all of those things, you really have to be able to... assert is the wrong word but I'll use assert because I can't think of another one, your credibility and your experience and knowledge within a company, within the marketing team, within your peer group.

And I don't always have the answer so being able to say I don't actually know what the answer is for that but let's go figure it out. Here are some things that I think we could use to go and track where that change might be. A good example is one of the companies that I worked with the go-to-market plan was atrocious.

But that's because everyone within the organization, the different functions were just looking at their own "What do I need to do in order to get this thing out into the market?" But what was being forgotten is that how do you get something out to the market, you get it through marketing. You can't just throw stuff over the wall and go here you go marketing go make it stick.

So it's creating that go-to-market, but doing it in a way that's really working with all of your colleagues across the organization and for them to realize "okay, now I get what you're trying to do, I get that actually, you're going to take away a lot of the frustrations and inefficiencies I was working with, in order to create a much better dialogue across the entire organization, but also better outcomes because then the byproduct we'll know what is achievable in three months or what good might look like in four months if we go to market because that needs my colleagues".

So it is the credibility and the ability to just say, "I don't know why it's broken, why the go-to-market is broken in this company but let's go figure it out."

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